Conscious Conversations is a series of meaningful, sit-down conversations with people whose journeys inspire us in the ARGO community. These entries will set sail periodically.
At exactly six o’clock on the dot, a Zoom notification pops up on my laptop roughly six thousand miles away from where it's coming from. Perhaps it was the Western European obsession with efficiency, but the day's interviewee didn't miss a beat. Marc Meunier had just entered our waiting room. Doing a final once over on the timestamp, I hit the admit button, and at once, I am met with warm remarks and a toothy grin, compelling myself to mirror his actions. Though much to my horror, it is quickly brought to my attention that nothing I was saying was audible on his end. "Oh, I'm so sorry!" I mutter. "Let me just unmute myself." I receive my answer in the form of a light chuckle and a casual, "it's all right." This exchange drags back and forth for quite some time, because apparently, no matter what I did, I was still mortifyingly inaudible. "Maybe it's me," Meunier says, adjusting his earphones. “I could disconnect and rejoin to fix things." He leaves the room, and it was at this point where I silently began to pray I wouldn't turn red from sheer embarrassment. So much for appearing efficient.
Once the final verdict deemed Zoom inefficient, we eventually resorted to a quick chat on WhatsApp. I could hardly hide my relief. After the tiny kuddelmuddel that transpired, it was finally time for the interview to begin.
"Okay, for starters, it's so easy to find out anything about anyone through a quick Google search nowadays. Given that, is there anything about you hidden from search engines that you wish people knew more about?"
Well, one thing I assume might not appear on a quick Google search is how passionate I am about nature and the environment. I also think it’s generally hard to grasp someone’s personality on Google and social media since these mediums only show fragments of who we really are as human beings. We get reduced to what we show online, when there actually is so much more to every single individual out there. My overall hope is to get more people engaged with matters that I'm passionate about and care deeply about, rather than what pops up on Google or social media!
"I completely agree. It's as if social media wants us to hyperfixate on just one side of our personality. Anyway, for the next question, as someone who grew up in Bali, how do you think decisions made by Western Powers, particularly the EU, affect island nations? Do you think Western Powers and regular citizens are aware that climate refugees from the Global South will potentially (or rather inevitably) migrate to their countries?"
That's a pretty big question, and I’m really not an expert in this particular matter. But, I think that a big problem and contentious issue of the EU is migration and everything around it! Some would argue the EU’s migration politics was one of the key drivers for the outcome of the Brexit referendum vote in Great Britain. The whole Brexit ordeal can, in some ways, be considered as a “Denkmal” for the failed EU migration politics. In that light and to go back to your question, I think the EU its member states mainly avoid positioning themselves at all when it comes to migration politics is because it encompasses so many different paralyzing political dilemmas, and the presence of climate change takes complications to an even higher level. Migration and its link to climate change is, in my opinion, still perceived as a political taboo and you’re very right in addressing that. I think politicians and citizens are very much aware, although as mentioned, it's a complex subject not exactly everyone wants to touch on, if that makes sense? Migration politics might just end up being one of the biggest issues humanity will have to face in the future, and climate change will be its biggest cause.
"Do you think regular citizens residing in the West realize how much corporations hailing from their countries affect the Global South?"
I'd say that people are definitely becoming more and more aware, especially with the many growing global climate, nature, equity, and rights movements which are all interconnected, but I'd say not enough.
“That's a bit disheartening to hear, but then again, lack of awareness is rarely the people's fault. Moving on, how do you think island nations could deal with sachet culture? Especially since 60% of ocean plastics “allegedly” come from South East Asia. Allegedly, because Western nations continue to ship their trash to SEA."
I grew up in Bali right next to the beach and a river, so I would say that I was “subconsciously” aware of the pollution and change going on. We began to see fewer and fewer corals throughout the years, and more and more plastic in the ocean. Even though I was directly confronted with these growing problems, I didn't figure out the many interconnections until I started my studies on Politics and Sociology and read a very simple but powerful book called Small is Beautiful. I can't exactly recall who wrote it, but I can look it up for you right now. Anyway, that was the first time I realized there was a lot more lying underneath. There is so much more beneath these issues — so much suppression. I began to properly understand the reality of these particular issues once I started taking a real look at the roots and not just the surface of the problem visible to me. And once I did, the gravity hit me like a bus. But, getting back to your question, expats and tourists play a huge role in the sachet culture and issue. You'd often encounter tourists from Europe who think Indonesians are creating the mess, when it is, in fact very often is, the opposite. They [ expats and tourists ] often throw their trash in a bin and keep places relatively clean, but they don't necessarily have any idea about who disposes of their trash, where it goes, and if it will ever even be recycled. They see the aesthetic side to it, but if you were to compare who consumes more plastic, I’m sure the tourists would outweigh the locals by far. The main pollution narrative seems to just pin the blame on Indonesians, but this is done without giving thought to how our individual actions as visitors are actually at the core of the problem. This is, in my opinion, a very superficial mindset that won’t lead to changes that are so urgent.
"During a cleanup operation, have you ever come across a piece of plastic that wasn’t from or manufactured in South East Asia?"
A milk carton from Australia actually showed up quite recently, I think.
"Do you think it's possible that green policies made in the EU could also work in Southeast Asia? Like how the EU has a ban on sachets. I'd love to see that or at least something similar implemented in Southeast Asia someday."
The EU seems to be leading globally in making multilateral policies for the environment, but it should also be noted that it isn't exactly working perfectly. If you look at Germany for instance — a country with one of the best global environmental performances, and considered a leading country when it comes to environmental policy — they still face many problems in trying to implement EU and environmental policies. Take regulating air pollution, for instance. The EU had to sew Germany (and other member states) several times for them to implement effective air pollution measures, and they still, to this day, are not complying with their own air pollution regulations. So, considering that there are still many many environmental issues we can't solve with a budget and a political and administrative structure as big as Germany's, these issues will be even harder to fix in countries in Southeast Asia. EU laws are effective because they're straightforward and have good mechanisms in place to ensure implementation. It's far more complicated in Indonesia and particularly Bali, because the political structures seem to be very blurry, and there also isn’t enough funding, which is understandable considering the poverty and equity dimensions they have to deal with. I’ve had the experience of having to interact with two leading entities in each community — the religious and political — and it felt as though they both held equal power over their designated area of jurisdiction.
"So there's no separation between religious authorities and the state?" Well, officially there is. Indonesia is a free and quite well-functioning democracy. But in communities or even to the extent of some regional levels, I would say no, not really, though that isn’t very uncommon or wrong. Each democracy is shaped differently and contingent on its culture and religions.
"Wow, that's actually news to me, but beyond that, why do you think it's a bit more challenging to implement green policies in Southeast Asia?"
Well, for instance, if you look at how these policies came to be in different countries, there was quite a democratic process that led to their implementation. There were often different groups of activists, scientists, and civil society actors working together who mobilized and lobbied successfully. Democracy and democratic processes and structures are large factors. People need to be given a voice, and there needs to be more transparency and possibilities for people to influence decisions and policies in all domains of politics. Yet I’m afraid the race for more and more and more profit also makes it harder to implement and pass green laws in Southeast Asia.
"For checks and balances, are there regulations for tourists and their pollution in Bali? How do you stop them from trashing the places they visit? How do we hold polluters accountable?"
Melati and Isabelle Wijsen actually banned plastic bags from Bali when they were around twelve, I think. But with tourists and expats still coming over, the pollution never stops. One of the big problems with plastic here is the way it's made. There are only certain types of commercial plastics you can actually recycle, so getting it out of the ocean is indeed a big help, but what happens after is where things get even more complicated. There are a thousand things you could do with the plastic you collect; there are people making furniture with plastics, others are doing art, but many people would much rather burn plastic out of convenience. It also gets a little frustrating when people demand that everything we filter gets recycled, because recycling isn't possible for every piece of trash we encounter here. So we’re sort of collecting trash we can’t really get rid of or recycle, hence why just keep on piling up. It would be great to see more policies in Southeast Asia on plastics, especially on the types of plastics allowed to enter the free market. When holding people accountable, we can point the problems out and sort of 'make polluters the enemy', but that is, in my opinion, not necessarily a constructive way of handling things. You can't really sue in South East Asia, because that would involve a very messy and expensive process, and I personally think that it isn't something that I should do as an expat.
"Oh, how come? What makes you say so?"
It's important to address these issues, but I just think that it would be very ironic for me to tell Indonesians what to do with their country, being an expat. I grew up in Bali, sure, but I don't think I experienced life the way most Indonesians do. I'm not in a place to speak for their struggles, but what we can do, as expats, is to help strengthen and facilitate solutions to these problems — problems we had a hand in creating.
"I completely agree. Expats sometimes toe the line between expat and the 'white savior' stereotype. For the last question: While it is a given that advocating for Climate Justice is urgent and empowering, it is also worth mentioning how potentially dangerous this could actually be. It goes beyond a change of one’s lifestyle, it also involves calling for reforms. How would you encourage more people, particularly members of Generation-Z to advocate for the planet, given this information?"
There's just so much we could do. It's not like one of those things that are easier said than done. If you have access to the internet or a way to connect, utilize that and what you have to find opportunities for you to take action even if it’s virtual! There are honestly so many ways you can do something, and so many people who are doing so already! All you have to do is start — maybe with a simple google search. I, for instance, was so incredibly inspired by what my friends Sam and Gary Bencheghib were doing with Make A Change World that I just called Gary up and asked if I could help him out. That brought me to the really cool “Sungai-Watch” project.
Meunier doesn't exactly know what the future holds. "That's exactly the problem I've been facing," he shares with the ARGO community. "I've done hands on work focused on small solutions, but these aren't necessarily the key to alleviating big issues. I've also looked into the more political side of things, but that isn't the entirety of the solution either, since environmental laws aren't as easy to pass or implement." He ponders for a moment, as though his entire life depended on how he weighed the stakes at that very second. "Definitely something in between," he settles.
Today, Meunier interns under international environmental lawyer Johannah Bernstein nestled somewhere in the Swiss alps, miles away from the picturesque shores of Bali. But regardless of the path Marc Meunier decides to embark on, we can guarantee that it's one full of adventure and promise.
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